In Nashville, songwriters frequently work together in teams called co-writes. These collaborations can lead to chart-topping hits, but they also create uncomfortable situations for female songwriters.
Last week, WPLN arts and culture reporter Paige Pfleger reported on the harassment female songwriters experienced during these co-writing sessions. Pfleger shared how she got the story on Monday’s episode of This Is Nashville. She was also joined by Crys Matthews, one of the artists she spoke to for her article.
This Is Nashville host Khalil Ekulona: How did you come across this story?
Paige Pfleger: I had been talking with our editors a little bit since I moved here really about wanting to work on sexism and sexual harassment in the music scene here in Nashville. We kind of had a lot of conversations about like, who is the white whale in Nashville? Like, who is the Harvey Weinstein in Nashville’s music scene? The more I would ask people that question, the more I found that it wasn’t really this one big person. It was just all of these little individual interactions that women were experiencing in the industry that were making it really untenable for them to be pursuing a career in songwriting.
KE: How many women did you interview for this story?
PP: All in all, I talked to eight women on the record. I got emails from a lot more about their experiences, whether that be in the songwriting room … and then also about just their experiences with different genres. Country music in particular came up multiple times and just about how these interactions and who you are as a person can impact what the song sounds like.
KE: How did they describe some of these really horrible experiences?
PP: I think any woman listening probably has been in a situation where you had someone asking you a question that you felt really uncomfortable about. Women told me about experiences where men would ask them about their sex lives, about their dating history, about their bodies, about their age — all of these things that that they were really not interested in sharing. Oftentimes, they told me, it was under the guise of being about getting closer so that (they) could do this intimate thing, like writing a song together. Women would say, ‘This has nothing to do with the song that we’re trying to write. This is just you using this situation and oftentimes using your power to put me in an uncomfortable position.’
KE: Crys, were you aware of this type of inappropriate behavior in songwriting sessions?
Crys Matthews: I mean, it pretty much goes without saying. Where there are fellas, there is likely to be this kind of pervasive issue as well, and especially in the genres that I most often find myself in, which is country (and) Americana. Not as much with folk. Thankfully, we try to be a little bit more progressive over in the folk wheel. But by and large, just because so much of the culture of country music has, you know, in a way kind of these antiquated ideas about femininity and masculinity and kind of what those roles look like, what those gender roles look like. So a lot of times, that culture kind of permeates the actual writing of the songs as well. I think what so many of my friends are finding is that that is bleeding over into the actual process itself.
KE: As you were getting into the industry, did you have friends who kind of told you about this and warned you about harassment?
CM: For me, because I’m so new to co-writing, I’m very much kind of a one-woman army. Prior to moving to Nashville, it hasn’t been as much of an issue for me, but hearing so many other women’s stories and hearing them talk about the interactions that they have in these situations. Most of the people that I have written with, I’ve written with other Black women. I’m a Black woman myself. So writing with other Black women, writing with one man, one white man who was just lovely to work with, but he is the exception, not the rule. And so I’m hoping that by and large, because of stories like Paige’s, we can kind of shift that on its head.
KE: Is there a connection between the women you spoke with and how they were approached to be a part of these very problematic writing sessions?
PP: I think there was a lot of discussion about when you are approached by a male songwriter to do a co-write. There’s a sort of question of like: what are their intentions? Are they approaching me because of my skill and because of my talent? Or are they approaching me because of how I look? Or are they approaching me because they actually want to go on a date, and this is, like, a way for them to kind of worm their way into it?
I think that second guessing often comes along with like all of this (strategizing) that women have to do in order to feel comfortable walking into a empty room with a man. … It’s like asking your friends if they’ve heard anything about this guy. One woman even told me that oftentimes she invites a third songwriter into the room if she’s unfamiliar with the guy, because that’s just the only way that she feels comfortable now approaching it.
KE: What kind of response have you received since publishing this piece?
PP: Unfortunately, a lot of people said that the article resonated with them and their experience. So there’s actually a Facebook group of women working in the music industry here in Nashville that I’m part of. I posted the article and said thank you, because originally that Facebook page was where I got a lot of the sources for the story. And one woman wrote ‘The sexism affects co-writing, but it also affects networking, making connections and so much more. I’ve been in Nashville for six years and can probably count on one hand the number of times a guy has said we should write some time to me and actually meant it, and that he only wanted to write — nothing more.’
So it’s very clear that some of these experiences that the women that I spoke to shared were common for women working in the industry here in Nashville.
KE: Crys, how does that resonate with you?
CM: It’s just so, so sad and just so indicative, again, of just that larger culture. You know, when we think about how to teach men how to be much better in these situations, it’s like if you have to think really, really hard about how to just be in a space and make someone be comfortable in a space with you, you’re probably part of the problem. It’s just so unfortunate. I’m just so grateful to Paige for shining a light on this because I know so many women have wanted to voice this and express this as a larger cultural issue within the songwriting community and to just be able to give such a voice to that and see truly how pervasive of a problem it is in the culture — just like in so many different areas of American life where sexual harassment and sexism and misogyny are concerned.
KE: Crys, do you feel like there are certain rooms that you wouldn’t be welcomed in?
CM: Yeah, it’s so interesting. I am also a lesbian. I kind of make this joke on stage all the time and when I’m playing in country spaces, that’s like, ‘Who better to write a song about a hot girl than a lesbian? I truly have the inside track.’ And so yet ironically, we don’t see labels or other men who are songwriters kind of thinking that same way and being like, ‘Oh yeah, that’s a good point. Let’s tap into that resource right there.’
I always write songs about loving the people I love and the way that I love and find the commonalities and those themes the same way that LGBTQ kids have always kind of been made to see themselves reflected in the songs that the dude bros are writing about love and the hot girl. You know, we’re able to make that transition in one direction, but not in the other. For me, as a songwriter, I try to always write as authentically as I can and kind of push the envelope. I’m hoping that as I’m in Nashville, more and more, people in the songwriting community here, everybody really but men especially, can kind of understand the idea of that and be open and curious about that process. Because when you’re singing songs to the audience, they’re just relating to the lyrics, just like music always is about relating to the lyrics. I hope that songwriters will start to not be so afraid of jumping into a co-write with somebody who is LGBTQ and writing a love song because, as we say, love is love.
KE: How have you been approaching co-writes?
CM: It’s been really cool so far. I’ve written a few so far, almost all with women, and which there’s no surprises to why. … But yeah, it’s been amazing so far for me because songwriting is such an intimate process. … It just is such an effortless process writing with folks that I feel so connected to just because the process of songwriting is such an intimate thing. But I’m hoping that as I’m in Nashville, more and more, I’ll get to experience kind of the idea of writing with strangers and trying to find that commonality with strangers and weaving those beautiful stories together.
KE: What actions are women taking to protect themselves?
PP: I’ve heard from a lot of people who just won’t write with men anymore. There were people on that Facebook page when I posted the article who said, like, ‘95% of the time I write only with other women, and this article continues to affirm my decision to do that.’ So I think at the end of the day, these stories were not hard to find. They’re really pervasive.
I think the question has to be less about what women are doing and more about what men are doing and what people who are in charge of labels are accepting for male songwriters when these behaviors are pervasive.
KE: Crys, what would you like to see done?
CM: As Paige said, it’s so important for men to hold other men accountable when you are in this songwriting community. I hope that men will understand that they have a responsibility to make these spaces safe for everybody — for women and for all songwriters. So when they hear of their peers coming back and telling the story about, ‘Hey, man, you won’t believe what I just did’ to not accept that, to speak out, to speak up and take that person to task and tell them that that’s not OK.
It’s so much about accountability. It always is. When people think that this kind of culture, that this kind of behavior is OK, that is inadvertently giving license for it to continue. So men have to hold other men accountable. If women, if we have to start doing our own version of the blacklist and make a pink list with all these people’s names named so that women know who are the big, big problem makers, we’ll do that as well. But so much of the onus isn’t on women to do that labor. It’s on men to hold other men accountable and to set the tone for what this culture should actually be like.
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